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Published - Friday, August 24, 2007

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Goose Island baptisms show public display of commitment
By JOE ORSO | La Crosse Tribune

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About 30 people were baptized in the water off Goose Island last month.

Todd Wolter was one. His story begins Feb. 18, a day he was high on meth again.
Wolter, 33, had lost a lot before that Sunday. His first wife had divorced him and lived with their two kids. He’d lost his trucking company. And he’d lost whatever you lose when you spend much of an adult life on cocaine and alcohol, and three years doing meth.

On that Sunday in February, Wolter listened to the Rev. David Holt give a sermon about addiction and temptation. High and paranoid, Wolter thought Holt was pointing at him.

Wolter, who is remarried, went outside, broke down in tears, asked Jesus Christ to come into his life, and hasn’t touched drugs since.

He said his baptism this month gave him a cleansing feeling.

Holt, pastor at First Evangelical Free Church in Onalaska, Wis., begins the conversation about baptism by describing it as an act of obedience by a follower of Christ.

“Any parent loves to reward their children for their obedience,” Holt said about the sense of God’s presence he and others have felt after their baptisms. “God does the same.”

Raised Lutheran, Holt said he was saved his senior year of high school and baptized as a freshman in college.

“I can remember the week after I was baptized as a college student, I just had an overwhelming sense of God’s presence and a new hatred for sin,” he said. “I can remember walking on the University of Georgia campus and seeing sinful things that used to not bother me and I was just repulsed.”

Baptism, Holt said, does not save a person, but is a beautiful, outward

display of salvation, as well as a way to publicly proclaim one’s allegiance to Jesus.

After beginning to attend First Free, Lisa Turnbull walked into Holt’s office June 29, 2006, read through a booklet with Holt about living a life in Christ, said a prayer in the back of the booklet and received Christ into her life.

Turnbull, 42 and married with a 5-year-old daughter, also was baptized in the river last month.

“It’s out of obedience,” explained Turnbull, of Houston, Minn. “It’s to publicly declare your commitment to God.”

Ken Hansen, 66, said he has done his fair share of sinning.

“Where I worked, if you didn’t swear the f-word every other word or every third word, you were a square,” said Hansen, who lives with his second wife in Trempealeau, Wis.

When Hansen called his son and told him he’d been saved at Good Friday service this year, his son, who’d been saved more than a decade ago, broke down in tears.

Hansen said he felt like a baby coming out of the womb as he emerged from the water during his baptism.

“Everybody told me I just let out a big ‘yahoo,’” Hansen said. “It was a clean, brand new life moving in.”

Joe Orso can be reached at (608) 791-8429 or jorso@lacrossetribune.com.
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Michael Welch wrote on Sep 7, 2007 12:45 PM:

" O-KAY! I'm gettin' the hang of this now! Well I see that I am alone here today but this board I believe is destined anyway (tomorrow?) for 'search-archive-land' and so the way of all boards, requiescat in pacem! 'RD' is either pouting or pondering his nomme de plume (de guerre!?) but otherwise the literalists will leave the boards to the rationalists and 'new agers' and Jesus Seminarians et. al. and that's THEIR dead end, not mine. My posts are relevant AND yes interesting but they are not captive piety; they are not sealing your mind (like a certain tomb!) for fear of a non-salvific thought. Richard Dungar longed for real 'light,' for some breathing room, for some respect for HIS judgment; he was right to do so. I will go on posting for his and others' freedom to think and BE... "

Michael Welch: Jesus As A "Bodhisatva"... wrote on Sep 6, 2007 12:00 PM:

" Harsch also alludes to a fine remark, too often ignored, by Jesus in the gospel of John in which he responds to critics by allowing 'Well if you can't believe in me -- believe in the work that I do.' Which is as generous and open an invitation to 'good works' as any I'd say. Here Jesus is truly Jewish and even Hindu -- don't think I'm the messiah? Think of me then as a healer and a teacher; watch and listen and imitate; that's more important anyway. The purpose of Hindu thought is both to reconcile yourself to the vagaries of the world and to 'free' yourself from them -- Jesus can indeed be a 'bodhisatva,' a buddha of infinite compassion, freeing you from your literalist chains. That's part of his 'work' -- not to wed you to your government's anxieties... "

Michael Welch: Jesus And Gandhi -- Pals Of The Saddle!... wrote on Sep 6, 2007 11:39 AM:

" Now obviously I do not believe Jesus is 'the only way to heaven,' whatever heaven means to you, which doesn't imply I think he has nothing worthy or interesting to say. I've also noted that Paul's support of governments ALWAYS trumps Jesus' pacifistic commands -- ALWAYS! I find that fascinating considering the claims for Jesus as Yahweh's son, a god incarnate etc. Literalists at first avoid commenting, then become irritated and defensive and finally pull out Paul as the REAL final 'Word' on the subject. I think Jesus is Gandhian and Gandhi Jesusian -- they'd understand each other. Doc Freud however would attempt to analyze them both. Again who or what 'RD' et. al. hate I don't know; I was writing metaphorically but that's EVER been the difficulty for literalists... "

Michael Welch: Return Of The Heretic... wrote on Sep 6, 2007 11:25 AM:

" Though I haven't been able to post for a few days I see that 'I'm gone but not forgotten.' Re: Harsch people will certainly NOT ignore me because I bring up too many salient points -- not to mention that the literalist believers would just be exchanging 'That Jesus -- he sure is great isn't he, RD?!' 'Yes he is, Krause, 'cause he's God in the flesh!' 'Yup!' How many posts like that -- 225? Or 3 or 4? No Welch TYPE ('Get me a Welch type!') and sorry -- no fun! And 'RD' STILL can't spell 'Gandhi'! Digs his heels into the dirt -- 'I ain't AGREEING with ANYthin' that Welch says!' And then he accuses me of -- sadly -- NOT agreeing with him! I mean, how BAD can I get?!... "

To harsch from the ambassador wrote on Sep 2, 2007 5:25 PM:

" No, I have not found Scriptural support for non-believers being saved. If you have some, I'll look at it. All that I have found in that area is a desire for my idea of justice to be served. You know, the old "pygmy in Africa" who never heard of Jesus. Will God weigh what this person knew in his heart to be right with what God says to be right and will it be enough to 'get them in.' I would like to think so, but unfortunately I don't see the proof of that in Scripture. Ultimately, I know that God is Just and He will make only the correct decision on other peoples fate. As for me, I have to stick with what is clearly stated in Scripture and warn others. "

Dear Ambassador, harsch writing wrote on Sep 2, 2007 4:47 PM:

" An ambassador speaks differently to different audiences. and he quotes selectively. Some ambassadors of your God believe that even non-believers will be or already saved. i think you know there is scriptural support for that, too. "

'God's lawyer' part 2 wrote on Sep 2, 2007 3:56 PM:

" Also, presenting or preaching God's word is definately not a sin. Presenting or preaching my own ideas that are contrary to the Word of God would be. Compare Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." To Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." "

Response on 'God's lawyer' comment wrote on Sep 2, 2007 3:48 PM:

" On one level I suppose I could agree with you that I am to be 'God's Lawyer.' A lawyer has to study hard so that he can adequately represent the truth. However, God doesn't need my knowledge or work to defend Him. A better term would be ambassador. As a member of the kingdom of heaven, it is my job to inform everyone of the invitation for all and the cost of entry is paid in full. All you have to do is accept the free gift of entry (salvation). Now I try to represent God's word as best as I know how, but it is always wise to post the Actual Scripture in case my view is wrong. Rejecting me has no consequences, but rejecting God's own Word does. I think you know what I mean. "

god's lawyer wrote on Sep 2, 2007 1:45 PM:

" quoting RD: 'However, if what I am saying is what God is saying in the Bible, then you are not ignoring me so much as you are ignoring God.' "

To Richard from RD wrote on Sep 2, 2007 10:12 AM:

" I don't see where I have been uncivil or unpolite to you. But if you must go, please just answer me these two questions...1)Do you recognize the authority of the Bible as the Word of God? 2)If you do recognize the Bible as the Word of God, then why are you offended if someone posts verses from it to support their understanding of God? If you think that I or someone else has taken words or verses out of context, feel free to say so and show the context in which you see it in. That's how we all learn more about each others Christian perspective. -Peace. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Sep 2, 2007 8:38 AM:

" I am going to withdrawn from this particular blog.We need to be more civil and polite to one another.Of the manuscripts and notes pertaining to the old Hallelujah House Fellowship from 1975-1981 that I had put together I hope history will balance things out in the long one. To Michael Welch:Be sure to contact myself the next time you are in La Crosse.Thank you- "

To harsch from RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 10:45 PM:

" I don't know what you are talking about when you say that I was trying to be "God's lawyer." Your references to you not believing in God or that I am a fool remind me of these...Psalms 53:1"The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God." and 1 Cor. 1:18&21 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." "

RD to Richard part 2 wrote on Sep 1, 2007 10:35 PM:

" I believe that your experience with the Jesus People Movement had some people with power issues, but you want to prejudge every non-Catholic church as committing the same abuses. That's wrong. You can't deny that the Catholic Church has been found guilty in many sex abuse scandals, but I wouldn't say that ALL Catholic Churches are full of sex abusers. I have talked with Catholic priests about doctrine. I can't really say that I'm trying to change your mind, cause frankly, I'm not sure what you fully believe. What I am trying to do is tell others of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit can take over after that.-Peace "

To Richard from RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 10:34 PM:

" No, I'm not getting angry or upset at you. Your posts are just vague and I don't fully understand them. Are there abuses of power in Protestant churches as well as Catholic Churches? Sure. What the percentage is for either side is probably an unknown. The best that a person can do is know what is going on in their own local church. "

harsch to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 8:34 PM:

" You did attack Welch and if you still can't spell Gandhi you may well be a fool. My frame of mind is formed by what I read. "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 6:43 PM:

" If I say something about my concerns about the abuses going on within your pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches with your leadership,you keep coming back with the Bible.I am getting the distinct feeling you are getting angry and upset.You are trying to change my mind and it will not work.Thank you-PS-You have ever been in a Roman Catholic church or talk to the clergy.Come to think of it-what are your life experiences?Thank you- "

harsch to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 6:18 PM:

" Well, you answered nothing, as expected, except that you know people are ignoring Welch. Interestingly, on another post you elevate YOURSELF to the position of God's lawyer. I believe, sir, that that is a sin. Perhaps you should have used your better judgment. "

To Richard from RD part 2 wrote on Sep 1, 2007 4:55 PM:

" When I read your objection over again it raises more questions..Are you saying that if a person disagrees with your view point they can't post the Bible verse that support their view? Or are you only wanting to talk to people who agree with you? "

RD to harsch wrote on Sep 1, 2007 4:32 PM:

" A few quick observations in your "attack" on me. 1)You categorize me as a "fool" and my response to Michael as an "attack." That shows your frame of mind. 2)I said Michael elevates Ghandi and Freud above Jesus. That's not a lie, ask Michael yourself. Just because he mentions Jesus "X" number of times doesn't mean he elevates HIS words. 3)Rom 13:4 "For he (rulers/government) is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil." 4)I know people are ignoring Michael because I can observe and I know some of the posters on the Faith board, and they have said so. "

To Richard from RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 3:59 PM:

" I post Bible verses to support my position. If you don't recognize the authority of the Bible on spiritual beliefs, then I understand your point, but I thought you said you were Catholic? Don't Catholics recognize the authority of the Bible? Are your beliefs based on your "better judgement?" If my opinions aren't supported by the Bible, then I can see why you would dismiss it. However, if what I am saying is what God is saying in the Bible, then you are not ignoring me so much as you are ignoring God. It doesn't really matter to me if you ignore me, but I don't think it's wise to ignore God. "

To Richard from RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 2:38 PM:

" Please be more specific. What are you talking about in your 1:29 post?-Thank you. "

harsch to rd re welch continued wrote on Sep 1, 2007 2:21 PM:

" 5. I have responded to those who refer to sources by posting many sources, none of which have been truly acknowledged. Maybe there's a reason for that: we all have our sources and you cannot expect others to take the time to follow our intellectual pusuits (I am not accusing you of being an intellectual). 150 words is not much, but you were able to make a fool out of yourself within that limit in your attack on the most intelligent and fair-minded poster here, Mr. Welch. And you had words left to claim people are beginning to ignore him. I wonder how you would know that. "

harsch reply to attack on welch wrote on Sep 1, 2007 2:17 PM:

" 1. Of course Welch refects 'Jesus' assertion that he is the only way to heaven--otherwise why would there be a disagreement. By the way, I believe somewhere Jesus indicates that those who don't see things his way will be just fine (Biblicists help me here). 2. Using Evil Doers, Bush-speak, indicates you are brain-washed. But anyway, since governments represent people, of course religious people should oppose their uses of violence. 3. Welch's use of the word hate has already been explained, though without the Christian decency of acknowledgement. 4. Welch mentions Jesus at least 23 times (look it up) as often as Freud and (at least trust Welch on spelling) GANDHI. "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 2:06 PM:

" In my last post to you Imaent to say:If I say onething-you say something diferent quoting the Bible.Thank you= "

Richard Dungar to Michael Welch wrote on Sep 1, 2007 1:33 PM:

" Ah,Thomas Jefferson our 3rd President!!!He was the one who wrote that Paul of Tarsus was the first one who corrupted the Gospels of Jesus. Paul wrote about Christian church leadership-the ecclesiastical leadership if you will. Thomas Jefferson-where are you when we needed you. Thank you- "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 1:29 PM:

" In a way you are proving my point about the pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches especially their leadership being overbearing.I say one thing and quote the Bible saying something completely different. Thank you- "

rick harsch to MW wrote on Sep 1, 2007 12:44 PM:

" George Bush can pronounce Alberto Gonzales perfectly but can't say Iraq properly (not even close). This is the anti-Freudian view of the misspelling of Gandhi. By the way, RD should be careful of using words like miraculous if he doesn't want to offend his God. "

Michael Welch: Ball's In Your Court! (He Said, Hopeful)... wrote on Sep 1, 2007 12:32 PM:

" Okay experience has taught me not to expect very much (if anything at all) from literalists but the same-old LACK of response. Still I 'discussed' so maybe perhaps could be someone out there MIGHT deign to reply to my critiques -- WITHOUT referring me off the board as an excuse for yet more paltry 'discussion'?... "

Michael Welch: Critiquing McDowell 3)... wrote on Sep 1, 2007 12:16 PM:

" In 'Evidence For Christianity' McD includes a rather sad essay by C. S. Lewis in which the scholar of European medieval literature disparages biblical scholars he disagrees with as over-intellectualized sorts. Lewis in 'Mere Christianity' posits his famous sandbag apologetic: 'Jesus is lord' OR he and/or presumably the gospel authors are 'lying.' There's a difference between outright fraud and writing for religious purpose accounts illustrating the faith. As for 'lunatic' I've written on boards of purported Jewish 'messiahs' who were rejected for many of the indiscretions accused of Jesus -- sexual liberality, claiming extra-doctrinal authority and especial intimacy with God, failing to realize the messianic mission at a crucial moment. I think Jesus BELIEVED he was the messiah but it turned out he wasn't -- not for the Jews at least... "

RD to Michael wrote on Sep 1, 2007 12:10 PM:

" Yeah, and we all know by now that whenever you post you will 1)reject Jesus's assertion that He is the only way to heaven, 2)only accept an idea of 'love your enemies' that ignores a governments role to punish doers of evil, 3)accuse a Christain of hating when they proclaim what Jesus himself said, 4)ellivate Freud and Ghandi higher then Jesus, 5)ignore the friendly advise to go to books or websites that more thoroughly explain the complexities you want discussed in 150 words or less and then declare that those who directed you there don't know or believe what is there. The thing is that people are starting to ignore your rants because you ignore what people post to you or claim something that isn't true. When you reject Jesus over and over it is time to ignore you and move on. (Matt. 10:14) "

Michael Welch: Critiquing McDowell 2)... wrote on Sep 1, 2007 11:57 AM:

" 'Most educated people [meaning of Christian European origin] believe/have believed' is another major argument in McDowell's apologetics. Now 'most people' who believe in a religion do so because they've been taught it since toddlerhood; indeed 'most' go along with it but not necessarily fervently or with much knowledge beyond Sunday school. Thomas Jefferson, who did study his Bible, notably produced an edited gospels expunged of every supernatural event as TJ did not 'believe' in them. Real biblical scholarship began in the 18th century and is a specialized field often confused lately with Dan Brown the pop novelist but if one is truly interested there's a great deal to learn even if one must alter some literalist views... "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 11:44 AM:

" Tt was against my better judgment to stay in the charismatic-pentecostal movement when I just wanted to leave.I got pressured and manipulated into staying in something I did not wanted to stay in the first place and I all I wanted was to return to the Roman Catholic church and be left alone.Sometimes-I should write a book.But then my idea about starting my own religion involving siamese cats is getting more appealing.Thank you- "

Michael Welch: Critiquing McDowell 1)... wrote on Sep 1, 2007 11:37 AM:

" As for McDowell okay I'll expand on my critique: 1) Too speculative: The study of antiquity requires a certain amount of speculation because the sources are relatively few and the concepts of 'scholarship' and purpose in writing were different in those times. Now so much has been suggested by various scholars re: Jesus that I would agree some is very unlikely (here Bugs and I would clash on some points) but much of it is thoughtful and worthy. MOST scholars do NOT take MML&J as accounts authored by these disciples and place the times of their production decades after the (authentic) letters of Paul. These are COMMUNITY accounts especially produced for particular concerns which is why the four vary so... "

Michael Welch: You Oughta Know By Now, You Oughta Know --... wrote on Sep 1, 2007 11:26 AM:

" What's interesting to me at the moment is how that 'love your enemies' command has been assiduously ignored for two millennia by Christians who have supported wars past -- and present. I wasn't accusing the people posting here of any livid, roiling hatreds (I simply don't know what or whom they hate) but I was supposing a more generous view of Jesus, one which would include say Hinduism. (Will -- as an aside -- someone tell me why those who don't really admire Gandhi CONTINUALLY misspell his name? Hmm -- well Dr Freud has an obvious answer for that!) Otherwise EVERYTHING else I wrote has been ignored -- as usual. And I certainly know by now that when anyone is referred to some 'web site' it means you literalists don't know 'the answer' and/or don't wish to discuss the subject. Okay... "

RD to Richard wrote on Sep 1, 2007 10:06 AM:

" I'm confused? You said "For myself it is a guilt trip and a feeling of being manipulated into doing something against my better judgment." First, which church do you feel is manipulating you through a guilt trip? Charasmatic/Evangelical or Catholic? What is our "better judgement?" I can think of a few times when I acted according to Jesus's teachings and against "my better judgement" and the results were miraculous. My point is that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God, our "better judgement" is uncalibrated and can seriously mislead us. Prov. 3:5,6 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Sep 1, 2007 6:08 AM:

" Thank you for your comments even though I do not agree with them.For myself it is a guilt trip and a feeling of being manipulated into doing something against my better judgment. "

To Richard from RD wrote on Aug 31, 2007 6:05 PM:

" I'm not offended at all. I don't understand why you feel offended when people call the Catholic Church a dead church or the Pope the Anti-Christ. What other people think matters not at all if their accuasations are false. Personally, I believe any church, (a gathering of believers) can be a dead church if they are not growing in knowledge and likeness of Christ. As for who the Anti-Christ will be, no one knows. As to the Catholic Church, personally I have problems with many of their non-Biblically based doctrines. However, I do believe that there are good Christians in the Catholic Church, but that's inspite of the Churches teachings and not because of them. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 31, 2007 5:40 PM:

" My late father graduated from Campion High School in Prairie Du Chein in 1943.One of his classmates&roommate was Leo Ryan who was killed in Jonestown.I knew Leo Ryan.This did not help matters with my past involvement in the pentcostal-charismatic movement and its controlling,authorantarian,dictatoeial leadership.Thank you- "

harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 5:24 PM:

" i do not own a copy presently. why not summarize your favorite chapter. "

To:Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 4:08 PM:

" Re your 1:45pm post. Evolution makes some pretty broad assumptions. In science, these assumptions will affect your conclusions if they are not accurate. For example, carbon dating is science. But, when dating a rock, for example, if certain properties of the rock have been compromised, it will affect the results. Water compromises these properties. So, when scientists date these rocks, they are assuming there was NOT a global flood. They are assuming these rocks are in the same state today that they have always been. Science is and always will be limited when it comes to determining our origins. In certain ways, evolution is very much a religion. It has it's own assumptions about the past. It's too bad you are being so evasive about chapter 14 of Origin of the Species. I was hoping we could have a good discussion. Oh well. "

harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 4:07 PM:

" as i suspected, welch says no such thing. he says that the dismissal of hinduism is so arrogant as to be hateful, which is hardly the same as saying anyone who disagrees with him is hateful, nor that people who dare to tell the truth are hateful. Most amusing is that a Christian in a Christian land thinks it is daring to be a rigid, closed-minded Christian. Is that bold or what. "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Aug 31, 2007 4:02 PM:

" One more thing my comments about the Roman Catholic church in the last post to you was not aim at you personally-this has happen when I had wanted to leave and people laying a guilt trip on myself.Thank you- "

Richard Dungar to Michael Welch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 3:55 PM:

" Thanks for your comments.Letme know when you are La Crosse.Maybe we can go out for coffee. "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Aug 31, 2007 3:52 PM:

" My apologies if I was inpatient.The local Jesus People Movement in La Crosse lasted from 1971 to 1978.It deveolped into a church-pentecostal-charismatic.One of the local charismatic/pentecostal churches in La Crosse is descended from this -different apostolic imput,leadership,name changes.Also I do get very offended when people tell me the Roman Catholic is a "dead church" or the Pope being the AntiChrist.Iam Roman Catholic. Thank you- "

Richard Dungar to Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 3:43 PM:

" No offense intented. Someone gave myself the nickname of the Old Bullfrog because because I like green a great deal and that I looked like Kermit the Frog.Now,where is Miss Piggy????Thank you. "

To Harsch 1:49pm wrote on Aug 31, 2007 3:14 PM:

" Absolutely. See his 8/30 1:49pm post-1st sentence. Ironically, exactly 24 hours to the minute of your inquiry. Weird. "

harsch again wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:49 PM:

" Can someone please quote Michael Welch accusing someone of hatred just because they told the truth? "

To:1:35pm wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:48 PM:

" Again, you missed the point. When it comes to our origins, science is limited in that it will only consider natural origins. By definition, science will not consider the supernatural. Which is fine. That is what science is. It will simply never give us complete answers when it comes to our origins. I keep repeating hoping it will sink in. Since our origins were supernatural in nature, science by definition can never give us a complete answer as to our origins. "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:45 PM:

" I don't feel compelled to answer questions, especially when more than 90% of my own questions are ignored. I read Darwin more than twenty years ago and knew even then that it was an imperfect truth, but a truth nonetheless. Buried in rock layers? I repeat: inevitable, Noah or no-noah. The arguments against science here are bizarre--you can't put evolution in a lab, so it isn't science? Can you put millions of rocklayered corpses in a lab? Is carbon dating scientific? Interestingly, scientists are generally much more flexible and self-critical than Christians who post here. "

rick harsch: hare krishnas wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:40 PM:

" As I write, Slovene Hare Krishnas are singing below my balcony, and I have been directing the sounds of a moghavina at them (the moghavina is a smaller version of the nadaswaram, which is considered the loudest non-brass instrument in the world). The moghavina turns heads, but the krishnas remain unperturbed, but for a drummer who looks like he wants to kill me. My objection is that they are selling Indian trinkets for Krishna at roughly 30 times the Indian prices. Okay for a retail store, but not something Krishna would appreciate. "

Rick harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:35 PM:

" truth resides in the greatest range of possibilities? So then my son is right, perhaps, when he calls me a bandicoot. And i may be right that our existence stems from a cosmic fart that stemmed from a cosmic fart that stemmed from a cosmic fart... "

To: Rick 10:58am wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:33 PM:

" Re-read the posts again. In this case, these dead things are buried in rock layers laid down by water. Point being, there is nothing in observational science that contradicts the Bible. There is a lot in science that contradicts evolution. You never answered the question about Chapter 14 of Origin of the Species. "

To:Michael Welch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:28 PM:

" Yes, Jesus is more like Ghandi. But on this board you accuse people of hatred for daring to speak the truth. Jesus and Ghandi were not afraid to speak the truth. Speaking the truth is not hate, and is a far cry from dropping bombs. If speaking the truth(or your understanding of it) is hate, can we have ANY kind of a discussion without hating? Sorry, I don't buy your point that declaring a religion as not being true is hate. Otherwise, we must say that Michael hates Christians...or at least Bible-believing Christians. "

Michael Welch: Jesus As The Buddha... wrote on Aug 31, 2007 12:03 PM:

" Another observation: 'RD' stated yesterday that Christianity does not 'change' but of course it does; it clearly has. Nascent Christian communities developed all sorts of texts -- the so-called 'gnostic' gospels are much more plentiful than the (four) canonical ones -- which proposed different Jesus' for different spiritual needs and desires. Jesus in these works is actually more like the Buddha, i. e. he is a guide to self-realization not a standard; his ideas are what count. Also anyone familiar with Christian history knows of the bloody clashes of doctrinal conflict in the 4th and 5th centuries over Jesus' status vis-a-vis Yahweh, 'settled' officially by Constantine's Nicaean edict. So obviously the Christian church changes dogmas and doctrines... "

Michael Welch: Mythos And Genesis... wrote on Aug 31, 2007 11:42 AM:

" There are four great 'creators' of our modernity -- Marx, Darwin, Freud and Einstein. (Interestingly, in passing, 3 out of the 4 were Ashkenazi -- central European -- Jews.) Their ideas have been revolutionary in more ways than the literal but none of them are of course beyond criticism and rightly so. I personally am far more familiar with Marx and Freud than with the two scientists and am actually much more 'Freudian' than 'Marxist' and like Papa Sig I've read a lot of mythology. I've read Genesis a dozen times or more and Genesis is pure myth -- not without historical context certainly -- but myth, which means it posits a religious foundation not a scientific one, science being a concept unknown to its authors. To propose Genesis as science and history is to grossly distort and misunderstand it... "

Michael Welch: AH! More Interesting Hmmm?... wrote on Aug 31, 2007 11:24 AM:

" Well now -- another 24 hrs and what? Yes Dungar is right -- be VERY careful about linking your life with charismatics and other literalists; like Moonies and Hare Krishnas they'll be running it. As for the 'love your enemies' bit I've written over and over again about the history of that Christian penchant for temporal power; Christian domination of Europe for a millennia and a half resulted in terrible wars and persecutions in Jesus' name. Literalist Christians supported George W. Bush and his wars and I've even heard from practicing Catholics on this very blog that they advocate dropping nuclear bombs on Mecca and Medina. No I don't think I've been at all 'ridiculous' in bringing up the subject -- but I notice I NEVER get a straight answer. Jesus IS more like Gandhi than George Patton right?... "

Evolution is limited wrote on Aug 31, 2007 11:08 AM:

" In looking for answers to the question of origins, evolution does not and can not consider the supernatural. While Creationism and ID can consider the supernatural. Evolutionary theory of origins is therefor not able to look at all possibilities. Something else to consider...in evolution a fact is something that can be observed/duplicated in a lab/and tested. By sciences own standards one species becoming another through multiple positive mutations is NOT a FACT. "

Dear Attempted Concescender, fro Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 10:58 AM:

" I wrote that it is dismissed as only a theory--Only. The point is that though there are flaws and even moreso misunderstandings that especially Gould (have you read chapter 2 of any of his books?) have explained, anyone who can think straight ought to know then that the theory excludes the possibility of taking Biblical Creationism seriously. Of couse, you can always say a divine force set the evolutionalry sequence in motion. There is a little slot there for your world-view. As for the flood business, I wished to mock the evidence for the history of mankind requires billions of dead people that would of course support any theory regarding mass death at any ancient time. There was in fact mass death at all times in history. Gulp. "

To Richard Dungar from RD wrote on Aug 31, 2007 10:19 AM:

" First, I did not see any question directed at me from you. Secondly, I don't log onto the computor everyday to see where the discussion has gone, so you must exercise a little patience with my responces. Now I accepted Jesus as my savior when I was about 8 years old. I was baptised when I was about 10. I grew going to various churches (Baptist, Evangelical Free, Assembly's of God) and find that there is good and bad in any church. Currently I go to a non-denominational Church. I'm curious, when were you involved in the Jesus People Movement? I thought that died out back in the '70's. Regardless, if you had a bad experience in one church, that doesn't condemn all churches of similar doctrine. "

To:Rick Harsch 7:57pm wrote on Aug 31, 2007 10:05 AM:

" Uhhh, I believe the reference to the "billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth" was a reference to the fossil record, not necessarily to dead people. The poster was making the point that the fossil record is compatible with the concept of a global flood-NOT proof of such. Your worldview determines how you interpret this evidence. Furthermore, no one lunatic is calling Darwins theory only a theory-the entire scientific community calls it a theory. Entire books have been written poking holes in this supposed theory. Try reading one sometime and expanding your horizons rather than resort to name calling when people present ideas contrary to your own. Again, we all have the same evidence. Your worldview determines how you interpret the evidence. By the way, did you read Darwins Origin of the Species? What was your impression of chapter 14? "

harsch to dungar wrote on Aug 31, 2007 9:37 AM:

" I hope you took my use of madman as a compliment (i think you called yourself a goat in one post), so I take you for a curmudgeon at the very least, a religious feller with an independent spirit. and i guess i was entirely wrong about you being in a box. Sorry about that--I shouldn't have assumed so much. and thank you, too. "

Richard Dungar to Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 9:04 AM:

" When I went to the Unitarian Fellowship meeting,one of 2 of my friend's from the pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches tried to talk myself out of it-the Unitarians were not Christian.I did go however,their first meeting in their new building.To quote Governor Walter S. Goodland of Wisconsin:"Independent in all things,neutral in nothing".A fitting quote for myself. Thank you- "

Richard Dungar to Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 31, 2007 7:19 AM:

" Thank you for the compliment.However, I did visit an Islamic worship & education center,a Jewish synagogue,and I went to an Unitarian Fellowship service.On the other hand,the charismatic,pentecostal,evangelical churches are a completely different story that I already commented on.Thank you again.You are most kind. "

rick harsch: back to my sources wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:36 PM:

" Many of them ARE historical sources, such as the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita and the Brahma Sutra and the Koran and the Tao Te Ching. They are not contemporary feel-good support thine own religion books. Obviously no one knows these books, or at least no one posting here. But my point was that these posters who offer sources offer nothing. Try something more difficult, like thinking outside the box. Try understanding how previous spiritual beings came up with different ideas regarding the goals of spiritual life and the means toward achieving salvation...or whatever it is called. "

rick harsch and intellectual stimulation wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:30 PM:

" Rick likes intellectual stimulation--see, it happened again. The problem is that I don't find much on these religious blogs, otherwise I could be fascinated; for, having an interest in the soteriological aspect of religions, I am genuinely interested in disocvering a Christian with the same general interest. Instead i find Christians, as I have said, who live in little boxes and can't see out of them. Once in a while someone like that madman Dungar carves windows in the box, but even he doesn't see the point that there is a world much, much larger than that populated by Christians outside the box--and they are unaccounted for by Christians. "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:57 PM:

" the box is open but no one wants to come out and answer any questions, particularly about condemning most of the world to hell. there are more open questions, but when you have some lunatic calling Darwin's theory ONLY a theory as if it is just a sort of guess and not a scientific step in the obviously correct direction, then there really is not intelligent life left on that side of the planet. And then to cite dead people in the earth as a proof of the flood...Why can't Christians with brains post here to make it more interesting? "

rick harsch to kenneth krause wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:49 PM:

" What about my sources? "

To 11:05 AM: wrote on Aug 30, 2007 5:19 PM:

" ...hmmmm 9:33 said: ...No intelligent adults....most intelligent adults...hmmmm well then we can agree that "a belief is not a truth (no matter how many people have the belief and intelligence has nothing to do with it)". My analogy is less absurd than the belief that god is truth. I can see physical evidence that Mickey Mouse exists. That is a truth. Where is the physical evidence that a god exists? The bible? That is a belief or a truth on the same level as Mickey Mouse. I recognize that my belief that Mickey Mouse is god is absurd. You do not recognize that your belief in god is absurd-you must consider that you may be insane. "

To Kenneth Krause from Richrd Dungar wrote on Aug 30, 2007 4:35 PM:

" In 1977 there was an very bitter,acrimonious split within the leadership of the Hallelujah House Fellowship and one of the leaders and his wife were disfellowshiped as a result. Mr. Krause-it is my turn what of your life experiences-I am very curious, Finally-I have been open and honest even to using my own name. Thank you- "

To Kenneth Krause from Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 30, 2007 4:25 PM:

" To continue this I was in a Christian communal living situation.That was bad.Mr. Krause if you had read my posts I did mention I still have the notes and manuscript about the history of the old Hallelujah House Fellowship in La Crosse which goes into detail about the heavyhandedness of the church leadership.You will have to read through my posts.Thank you "

To Kenneth Krause from Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 30, 2007 4:17 PM:

" In answer to your question:dictating where you are supposed to be living and with who.That you are in a "dead church" that one happen when I had wanted to leave and I had gotten the comment I was "running away" from problems.And being prophesying over you "thou saith the Lord"You need to read my posts.Also if you critized them you are accused of ''rebuking" or talking against "the King's kids"Thank you- "

To:8/30 1:49pm wrote on Aug 30, 2007 3:40 PM:

" Well, we ARE at a standstill. If your definition of hate is so broad that it would include disagreeing with another religion whose views are contrary to yours, then I can accuse you of hate also, as you are dismissing Christianity. Michael, you are just being silly. If we are having a discussion about religion, and we disagree, THAT is hate? How can we even have a meaningful discussion? Hypothetically, what would the ground rules be? No disagreeing? Christ himself claimed to be the only way to God...YET he still loved his enemies. Clearly, it is possible to stand by absolute truth AND love your enemies.... "

Another question for Richard from Kenneth wrote on Aug 30, 2007 3:34 PM:

" Just saw your last posts. If you don't mind sharing(I don't want to pry or get too personal)could you cite specific examples of the leadership being too controlling? "

Kenneth Krause to Richard Dunger wrote on Aug 30, 2007 3:32 PM:

" I want to formulate an adequate response, so could you give me some specific examples of extremist views, for example, of the evangelical church that you feel are a threat to this country? I am not trying to be obtuse, I really am not following....I have had no negative experiences personally... "

To Kenneth Krause from Richrd Dungar wrote on Aug 30, 2007 3:18 PM:

" continue... I was raised Roman Catholic but ended up getting involved with the local Jesus People Movement in La Crosse. The leadership proved to be controlling and I wanted to leave but got talk out of it.In the end I had some health problems.I did go back to the Roman Catholic church.But I do not care for the pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches and their leadership as a result. Thank you- "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 30, 2007 3:11 PM:

" I should become a reformed animist.I would get 2-3 of the most vocal sealpoint siamese cats and start my own religion involving them by declaring them to be "gods" who would "speak" through them and then I would "interpret" what they are meowing,purring,growling.... "

Richard Dungar to Kenneth Krause wrote on Aug 30, 2007 2:23 PM:

" To continue-I am not only turn off to the charismatic-pentecostal-evangelical churches I consider to be a serious threat to the country because of their extremeism views. Thank you- "

To Kenneth Krause from Richrd Dungar wrote on Aug 30, 2007 2:19 PM:

" My questions:what do you think of the charismatic-pentecostal-evangelical churches with their church leadership?Do you think they are going extremist in their missions,beliefs,views,agendas?What is your life experiences cconcerning them if any?As for APES(Apostles,Prophets,Elders)that is my nickname for their 5-fold ministries,elders,deacons. Iam sarcastic with that one. Thank you- "

Michael Welch: Oh And About Harsch... wrote on Aug 30, 2007 2:05 PM:

" Re: Rick Harsch -- he's by far one of the most stimulating people I have known. He's an intellectual, a writer and a teacher in every aspect of those conceptions. He's very funny too and while he doesn't suffer fools he's essentially a warm person who genuinely likes 'people' -- far more than I do. That there are those here who don't/can't appreciate him isn't surprising to me considering -- after all, to borrow a phrase 'Bugs' likes to quote, 'What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?'... "

Michael Welch: Loving Folks Is More Than Words (But Attitude Helps)... wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:49 PM:

" As for not loving 'enemies' -- I say that the dismissal of a far more ancient (than Christianity) and such a profound religion as is Hinduism is so arrogant as to be 'hateful.' I don't believe you or 'RD' care to understand the intricacies of Hinduistic thought ('RD' admits that) but MY perception of what is valuable in Jesus' teachings is his apparent generosity of spirit, not his exclusivity. Now I realize that as a Jew he had to be of course 'exclusive' too (Bugs' complaint) and that's why I no longer 'believe.' Loving enemies IS admittedly extremely difficult and beyond folks here which is why Christianity is a religion ABOUT Jesus, not the religion OF Jesus (which was, well, Judaism really)... "

Michael Welch: So? Tell Me Something Interesting... wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:34 PM:

" Why would I (or anyone else) expound a point of view that I don't believe? Why bother? I do have some disagreements with Harsch and 'Bugs' but sure we share a commonality of thought. I know from past uh 'discussions' that you are a biblical literalist and so MUST believe in creationism; I'm not and don't and neither does the scientific community. We'll just 'round in circles on that and frankly it comes out boring. The gospels are of course the fullest accounts of a 'Jesus of Nazareth'; however they're not first-hand and Jesus' actual life as Harsch indicated remains obscure. The 'Christ of faith' continues though and will continue but that is not the 'real' (i. e. historical) Jesus. You however will believe what you want to -- so? Okay... "

Kenneth Krause to Richard Dunger wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:26 PM:

" I didn't respond because I am honestly confused by what you are asking. I don't know what you mean by APES. What is your specific question or questions? I get the impression that you are a Christian but were turned off by some members of the church? Please share more of your specific experience, what you believe and why, and what your specific questions are. I will be happy to reply. I will be gone this weekend and may not have access to a computer, so please be patient. "

To:Bugs 10:56am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:18 PM:

" I don't have one with me now, but sometimes those study Bibles are helpful with perceived inconsistencies or errors. There are also websites that deal with this. I am not brushing you off, but you either accept these explanations or you don't. I know there was another board where people tried explaining these perceived errors to you, but you simply weren't open to it. Which is your right. Good luck to you. "

Kenneth Krause to Michael Welch wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:07 PM:

" Another poster asked on 8/29 3:23pm: where is anyone advocating hurting or not loving your enemies? Also, you mentioned a book by McDowell amd then numbered 3 different points, but never explained where you felt McDowells analysis fell short or where he is in error on those points. If you wish to have an intellectually stimulating discussion, it may help to be open to views not necessarily your own. The only people who ever make valid points are those who share your views. Don't you find that either really strange or really closed minded? And, make no mistake, evolution is just as much a religion as creationism. See my 11:02am post. "

To:12:00pm wrote on Aug 30, 2007 12:55 PM:

" I am thinking that is the one and only time I will read "Rick" and "intellectual stimulation" in the same sentence. "

Richard Dungar to Michael Welch wrote on Aug 30, 2007 12:48 PM:

" Thanks again Michael for your comments. You know despite the fact I made a comment to Ken Krause&RD they did not reply at all.I am wondering what they experience concerning water baptism,the baptism of the Holy Spirit not to mention the APES.The silence is deafening. Are they skittish of me?Many thanks again Michael- "

Michael Welch: Bored Of The "Rings"?... wrote on Aug 30, 2007 12:00 PM:

" The arguments here have become just repetitive; the 'Christians' are witnessing; fine: they believe -- the rest of us already know that. I of course was hoping to discuss the oddities of the Bible with folks whom I presumed had read it. I find them though very defensive and reluctant except to regurgitate a few 'standard' rationalizations. Again okay: I'm disappointed but obviously I'd hoped for too much. With Richard Dungar however there's someone with first-hand experience with these literalists and he sure didn't 'feel the love' did he? And Richard's NOT an atheist or agnostic. The greatest 'sin' against me personally is to bore me -- so thank you Rick and Bugs for your more consistent intellectual stimulation... "

Michael Welch: Down Down Down Into A Burnin' Ring O' Fire --... wrote on Aug 30, 2007 11:47 AM:

" Well things got curioser and curioser since my last post -- we've even descended into the Josh McDowell faux history-faux science 'hell'; yes I read one of his books and it was a compilation of other folks' historical Jesus scholarship that JMcD then 'discounted' by claiming it 1) too speculative and 2) anyway your parents believed and do you want to call THEM liars? and 3) he dredges up the hoary C. S. Lewis sandbag -- Don't like Jesus eh you dirty rat! Calling HIM a liar too? Or a lunatic?! Well as Bugsy said we're back at 'loggerheads,' back in de funk. 'Creationism' as the courts have clearly understood IS religion, NOT science. As for 'love your enemies' -- it ain't MY religion is it? It's YOURS. I didn't say to do it; YOUR 'God' did -- right?... "

To:to:3:41pm wrote on Aug 30, 2007 11:05 AM:

" No one said because intelligent people say it that it is true. The poster was talking about your analogy, which you must admit is absurd. But, if most intelligent people DO believe something and you compare it to something like Mickey Mouse, which NO intelligent people believe-you must consider that you may be insane. "

Kenneth Krause to 9:33am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 11:02 AM:

" Creationism or evolution? Depends on your worldview. We all have the same evidence. Your worldview determines how you interpret the evidence. For example, if there really was a global flood in Noah's time, you would expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. Which is exactly what you do find. There is nothing in observational science that contradicts the Bible. On the other hand, there are so many holes in the "theory" of evolution that it shouldn't even qualify as a theory. It is like its own little quasi-religion. There have literally been books written on the subjecy(by credentialed scientists). I would cite these sources, but people here don't like that. For a little nugget, just read Chapter 14 of Origin Of The Species, by the god of evolution himself, Charles Darwin. "

Bugs to 8:52 am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:56 AM:

" "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom"-Matthew 16: 28. Now that's a pretty bold claim that Jesus made but did not fulfill. "

To:9:22am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:51 AM:

" I thought we were talking about worship. "

Kenneth Krause to:9:24am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:50 AM:

" The sources were provided that answer your questions. It is your choice whether to examine these sources, and whether to accept the evidence provided. I am not going to engage in the childish bickering that you and others engage in on the other boards, such as the ones on racism at UWL. "

To:9:45am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:44 AM:

" No. Gundersen is a private entity. They chose to take the pictures down. Then, I believe, they were put back up. Not sure on the last point. Of course, some people will always try to force everyone else to comply with their wishes so they can avoid being offended. Look at the 10 Commandments debacle. "

To:9:39am wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:41 AM:

" We are all Gods children. "

To 3:20 PM: wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:45 AM:

" Didn't they force Gunderson to take down pictures of Christ that some thought were "offensive". "

to: 3:14 PM: wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:39 AM:

" You said "huh" Very expressive so I'll respond in kind: what? Would you physically discipline someone else's children? No? Then why should your god punish all children rather than just its own? "

To 3:41 pm wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:33 AM:

" Many "intelligent" people also thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth. Intelligence of an individual does not determine what is true or not. As an "Intelligent" person, should you ignore physical evidence? Evolution or Creationism. "

rick harsch on being out wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:26 AM:

" Again i express my concern about goose bumps caused by fecal matter. do not let this go unreported, for the love of god, please! "

rick harsch: my box is bigger than your box wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:24 AM:

" So there. Actually I am quite open to the truth. And since you discount my sources without knowing a thing about them your are in a very small box. There is a lot of evidence about Jesus? All right, a simple question: What was he doing when he was 23? What about between his 25th and 29th birthdays? Give some extra-Biblical information. Bugs has more than adequate reason and provides more than adequate reasons that the Bible is lacking as an historical source. What are the others? What do these extra-Biblicals provide? "

to 3:20 PM: wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:22 AM:

" Sure? Just try calling a black person a N, or some women Nappy Headed, or a cop a Pg. Try walking down the street naked. Where did the strip clubs go? and why? Many things that are offensive are legislated. Capice? "

To:Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:05 AM:

" Re sources: I simply do not believe there is nearly as much actual historical evidence in support of the sources you cite as there is for Christianity. Old Testament phrophecy is extremely powerful also. In another post you talked about boxing yourself in. Truth by its very nature IS exclusive, therefore tends to box one in. Look at it this way: My truth is that Christ is the only way to God. Your truth is that He is not. We both "box ourselves in" by our respective truths. I believe there is more evidence in support of my truth. But, someday we will all know the truth. "

To:Bugs wrote on Aug 30, 2007 8:52 AM:

" Everyone knows the Bible provides evidence for Christ, so naturally that would be the main source. But the books the poster referred you to also examine the extra-Biblical evidence. Christ made some pretty bold claims, and I just think everyone owes it to themselves to examine all available evidence before dismissing them. "

Richard Dungar to Everyone-Thank you- wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:10 AM:

" I want to thank everyone for letting myself express my opinions.Normally,I don't this very much.However,the article about water baptism and Pastor Holt and his church was one I did not want to pass up in commenting about since I experience this in my own life.Again my thanks to the webmaster, Michael Welch, and everyone. "

Bugs to Kenneth Krause wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:05 AM:

" Michael Welch read one of those books you mentioned and concluded, I think, that the main source of evidence for Christ was the Bible. As you know, I don't have any confidence in the truthfulness of the Bible, so I discount it as a source. And, yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Nothin wrong with that. "

Richard Dungar to RD wrote on Aug 30, 2007 6:16 AM:

" Your last post to Michael Welch proves my point that the pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches can be intolerable to other viewpoints.If you to wring the Old Bullfrog's neck be my guest.But you will have to stand in line and wait your turn.I probably got people from your pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches angry and upset at myself already for many of my posts. "

rick harsch please don't throw me in the briar patch chamber wrote on Aug 30, 2007 5:31 AM:

" Running through this whole debate is one obvious message: people who put themselves into a box can't punch their way out of it even if it's a damp paper box. All Christian responses, even R.D.s. In fact R.D. is an odd case because he criticizes his box-mates. Still the same box. Every argument redounds to 'I know', as if others don't. That rules out empathy of any real depth. It makes Christianity a religion without compassion, not a very attractive one. So what if Hindus condemn me--though of course they would not--I know I'm right. So they all go to hell, big deal. I'm right. "

to Michael from R.D. wrote on Aug 29, 2007 9:51 PM:

" On one of your posts you state "how would you feel if all hindus condemned you?" I would feel fine because I know that their religion is false. It would feel the same as if the worshipers of the invisible pink unicorn all said that I would spend eternity in a briar patch chamber. I know that ONLY God has the power to grant eternal life or eternal separation and I know this through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. The other thing that you said in that same post was that religions would have to change to be more tolerant. #1 Christians follow Christ. #2 Christ is the only way to heaven, not negotible. #3 Christians can not tolerate what Christ calls sin. That's the difference between Christianity on other religions...Christianity is based on an eternal standard and not the whims of a collection of followers. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 7:48 PM:

" It also get bad when people in the charismatic-pentecostal-evangelical churches point the finger at the mainline denominations especially the Roman Catholic Church concerning sexual abuse scandals when in actuality they do the same or even trying to cover up in their own churches and are being hypocritical in the process.Thank you- "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 6:24 PM:

" To Kenneth Krause:I did read Josh McDowell's book:"Evidence That Demands a Verdict", when I was in the pentecostal-charismatic movement.However, I am still very concern about the abuses of power and authority goimg on within the pentecostal,charismatic-evangelical churches. There has been no reform or dialog about this. I invite any comments from you or anyone else. A Great Reform is needed. Thank you- "

rick harsch on sources wrote on Aug 29, 2007 5:40 PM:

" Please read the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, the Gnostic Gospels, the whole Bible, Michael Welch's posts, the Upanishads, Radhakrishnan's History of Indian Philosophy, Mircea Eliade's Yoga, the Dhammapada, the Brahma Sutra, Sankara's commentaries on the Bhagavad Gita, the Diamond Sutra, Schpenhaeur, Nietzsche, Joseph Campbell, Blaise Cendrars' Le Lotissement du ciel (sorry about the French), Albert Hourani's History of the Arab Peoples, and ibn Khaldun, for a start. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 5:02 PM:

" It gets very bad when the pentecostal-charismatic-evangelical churches and their leadership attack the mainline denominations as being "dead churches" and that they alone have the answers. This is very elitist and unethical.And above all it is very unchristian and lacking in charity and kindness. Thank you- "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:54 PM:

" where have all the Christians gone, long time passing... "

To:1:16pm wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:41 PM:

" That is a stupid analogy. No intelligent adults believe Mickey Mouse is real, whereas most intelligent adults believe in God. Those who believe in God: C.S Lewis, Gary Habermas, Isaac Newton. Now, you name a few that believe Mickey Mouse is real. Then it will be my turn again. We can keep going... "

Kenneth Krause to Bugs andThankfull wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:37 PM:

" We will have to agree to disagree. I believe there is enough evidence to believe in Jesus. God gives us enough evidence to make faith reasonable, but not so much evidence as to make faith unnecessary. So, if you are looking for iron-clad proof, you won't get it. But, the evidence is there. For more, read "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell and "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. I know people have gotten bent out of shape on other boards when others have dared cite sources, but these books do a good job of examining the Biblical AND extra-Biblical evidence for and against, and do a nice job of tying everything together. "

Kenneth Krause to:1:16pm wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:28 PM:

" Who on this board tried to use a mythical character to prove the existence of another? The post you were referring to was a discussion on whether a mere intellectual belief would save someone, and the example was used of the devil believing. It had nothing to do with proof. Try to keep up. "

To: Michael Welch 1:02pm wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:23 PM:

" I may have missed the post, but who here is advocating hating and hurting their perceived enemies? "

To:Thankful! wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:20 PM:

" Great. Go ahead. Have at it. You don't need anyones approval to worship whatever you wish. If a statue of Mickey was erected in a public park, no one would have anything to say about it. After all, no one has the right to not be offended. Capice? "

To:dclxvi wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:14 PM:

" Huh? "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 2:38 PM:

" To Michael Welch: Michael many thanks for your kind comments. However, I think certain people would like to wring the Old Buulfrog's neck for some of his comments about the APES. Again my thanks Michael. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:49 PM:

" I suppose I am going to hell for rebuking the eccesiastical establishment.If you telling them something that is not right then you are accuse of rebuking them as elders. Where is Catherine of Siena when we need her. Come to think of it, we need Cardinal Newman also.Both were not happy with the clergy. Thank you- "

Bugs Raplin wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:48 PM:

" I certainly do believe in the immortality of the soul and God. Not the imperfect, murderous god of the Old Testament nor in Jesus. Not enough evidence to believe in the latter. "

Bugs to 12:22 pm wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:44 PM:

" It's irritating when someone posts under my name. "

Michael Welch: Some "Love" Hate And Hell... wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:34 PM:

" By the way I knew Richard Dungar when I lived in La Crosse and he's a polite, thoughtful man who's a great repository of local lore; I commend him for his 'witness' here of just how debilitating a controlling 'Christian' fundamentalism can be. Thank uh God I've avoided that experience but for hearing sidewalk 'preachers' spew hell and damnation, harassing anyone who happens to walk by (me for instance). I have nothing but contempt for the absence of any discernible 'jot or tittle' of Jesus' love in their 'belief' and for their own perverse and obvious 'love' of hate and hell... "

Thankfull wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:16 PM:

" After reading this thread, I feel better about my belief that Mickey Mouse is real and should be worshiped. I used to think that Mickey was just a character created by the imagination of man just like god but since I've seen here that you can use an imaginary character to prove the existance of another, "satan believes in god but is probably not a christian". I know that Minny believes in Mickey so that makes my belief in Micky valid. its time that Mickyianity had its own place in a "public" park. "

Michael Welch: The "Contemporary" Christian... wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:02 PM:

" Well this has turned out to be a good discussion after all. Yes I acknowledge that 'RD' has rightly reserved to God condemnation etc.; fine. But Harsch has a good point when he says that's often the 'polite' Christian response. It's the rigidity of doctrine and literal reading of these problematic and ancient scriptures that lead to the assumption that well you don't want to SAY it exactly but it's after all 'in the Bible' and the Bible is 'It' -- the Last Word of God. I say a 'modern' Christian SHOULD regard the B not as 'absolute' but yes 'cherry-pick' it for stuff that works -- like respecting ALL your fellows and condemning no one in war or peace as Harsch says. Jesus wants you to LOVE, not hate OR hurt, your perceived 'enemies,' right?... "

dclxvi wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:59 PM:

" It would be nice if "your" god would only punish it's creations. Why is it that when god punishes it's creations that it cannot do a better job of identifying it's own. My insurance co says that I can't collect because it was caused by an act of god. god brings out the shotgun and shoots into the crowd and kills all, rather than taking the time to identify the guilty, just like the so called great flood. your god can't tell the difference, just like a man who sleeps around, my kid? maybe, could be, so what. almighty? all knowing? if so it's not all compassionate. "

To: Rick Harsch from Bugs wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:22 PM:

" I don't get it......? "

To:Michael Welch wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:20 PM:

" See 9:12am post. That post addresses the points you bring up in your 12:00pm post. Not a single one of us has the power to consign anyone else to Hell. Each of us are in charge of our own eternal destiny. "

To be fair to bugs wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:15 PM:

" Bugs has his demons, as they say. Yahweh is one, Bush is another. It may amount to the same thing--the two of them having created Hell. So perhaps Bugs is far more spiritual than he likes to say. RH. "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:12 PM:

" And since certainty is subsequent to information, one must be somewhat of a monster to become certain of something that damns most fellow men. I try to get a fix on my own certainties and they appear to be limited to sort of the opposite--like I am certain it was inhumane to attack Iraq, as it was to fight in Vietnam, as it was and is for Russia to suppress Chechnya, etc. I guess I think that I am even a better Christian than you when it comes down to it--and it doesn't even require belief or faith. It's actually easy--just really love your fellow man. "

rick to the latest to rick wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:07 PM:

" Which is still just a nice way of saying to hell with all of you, meaning most of us, which strikes me as very un-Christian. You've got yourself a tautology, boy, and there is no way out if you think you have love inside you. "

Michael Welch: Some Advice Again... wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:00 PM:

" Let me say too: I've picked on 'RD' in order to get more out of him re: the Bible but he's being very reasonable -- from his point of view. But that's the difficulty. As Rick notes IF one's religion can theoretically consign say 'all Hindus' to a theoretical, even imaginary 'hell' the arrogance and yes monstrousness of that proposal OUGHT to be self-evident -- just imagine all Hindus condemning you. 'Bugs' finds Yahweh et. al. repulsive in His absolutism and primitive fury -- well sure; that's why MY effort here has been to promote thoughtful examination. ALL religions MUST adapt to real rationality sooner or later OR erupt in endless '30 Years wars.' (Have we one now?) The Europeans no longer 'believe' because what it got them in the end was continuous blood and slaughter... "

Michael Welch: Life Without Yahweh? (What A Relief!)... wrote on Aug 29, 2007 11:46 AM:

" Well if one examines the 'Tanakh' (OT to Christians) carefully, being separated from Yahweh is EXACTLY what one might hope for. Yahweh is one of the most striking and compelling characters in literature (almost a 'Harschean' invention in His sinister eccentricity) but His presence has ALWAYS denoted travail and disaster after disaster for his 'favored' people -- I mean: if one considers how He's treated the Jews what can we goyim expect? Harsch gives the best advice of course -- religions are all complicated and a bit goofy but they need be tolerant of each other or they become murderous. What Jesus DID is his example -- Christians really ought to study those writings of James... "

Dear Bugs, from Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 29, 2007 10:57 AM:

" I'm converting--a billion Hindus was all right for six weeks, but for eternity? And mixed with the Chinese? Imagine how overcooked those 2000 years old eggs get down there! "

To:Rick wrote on Aug 29, 2007 9:12 AM:

" You are missing the point. Let me try once more. Christians believe Christ was being truthful when he claimed to be the only way to God. You don't believe that. Fine. The point is, Christians do. So, it is about speaking the truth as we see it, not trying to find some middle-ground, feel-good, quasi religion with connections to all other religions. It is not about God forgiving unbelievers for their unbelief. Hell is simply the absence of God, of all that is good. So God is simply giving unbelievers what they wished for while here on earth-eternal separation from Him. Again, you are entitled to your opinion regarding the absurdity of Hell. But, it is what it is. "

Bugs in Hell-part 2 wrote on Aug 29, 2007 7:37 AM:

" Well, another day of suffering. Why, oh why, didn't I listen to RD. Welch and Harsch are to blame. Damn it! I don't like being damned. Damned for all time. I've never been more uncomfortable. Heat and humidity. And the devil keeps playing polka music 24/7. And they make me watch reruns of "According to Jim" and "My Mother, the Car." Well, at least I've got Mother Teresa to talk to. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 7:36 AM:

" No more spiritual, church tyranny within the pentecotal,charismatic,evangelical churches! No more APES (Apostles,Prophets,Elders) controlling us! Thank you- "

Johnny Guitar wrote on Aug 29, 2007 6:52 AM:

" I'm enjoying this conversation almost as much as my coffee and cigarettes. "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 28, 2007 4:29 PM:

" Besides, I, too, find the concept of hell quite funny. That you believe in it and can joke about it tells me that you may have a sense of humor and that actually picturing hell renders the concept an absurdity. "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 28, 2007 4:27 PM:

" and my question about your effort is why do you make so much of it if not to answer the obvious question: so the rest of the world, the non-believers are going to hell? All Hindus, for instance? Question three is why not, since that second option is not theologically viable--no religion that condemns the majority of humanity to hell can be taken seriously outside itself--find the connections between your beliefs and those of, mainly, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, and find an intelligible resolution to your conundrum. Is there one? I'll give you one free answer, though it is not necessarily my own: Your God forgives the unbelievers their unbelief. "

To: Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 28, 2007 2:11 PM:

" No one consigns anyone anywhere. We are all in control of our eternal destiny. Jesus offers each and every one of us the gift of salvation. It is up to us whether we accept this gift or not. That aside, if you absolutely do not believe that Jesus claimed to be the only way to God(or that if he did he was lying), then why be offended? Bugs isn't offended. I enjoy his comments regarding heaven and hell and waving. Once, he even had a very entertaining poist entitled "Bugs in Hell". It was hilarious. If we are lunatics for taking Jesus at his Word, it would not be worth your time to be offended. Also, if we believe wholeheartedly what Jesus had to say, OF COURSE we would share that info. A minor point, but when was the concept of Hell first brought up in this discussion? "

Rick harsch wrote on Aug 28, 2007 1:47 PM:

" An interesting side note on Jews is that they were more or less viewed as brothers by Moslems before the second holocaust (Israeli rule). When Christians were confined to their small European territories bound in ignorance, Jews were roaming the world committing trade. well before the Polos, Jews had been all over India, central Asia, even China. The world that had been lost to Christians, that was alive to Moslems and Hindus and Buddhists was well known to Jewish traders and those who read their accounts. "

Michael Welch: Jews NOT For Jesus... wrote on Aug 28, 2007 12:12 PM:

" Okay I accept that you see it as a religious duty to proselytize -- it won't work on 'Bugs' or me but sure we've heard it all before and we can 'take it.' But I would like to say that those interpretations of the Jewish scriptures are NOT the way Jews see them; the messiah can only come as a JEWISH redeemer, restoring the religion and its faithful to their former primacy. Jews of course have for nearly two millennia lived in a hostile even murderous Christian-dominated world so they have learned to keep things to themselves but Jesus is a failed messiah at best though all-in-all a 'good Jew' in the synoptics but angrily anti-Jewish in that problematic gospel of John... "

Michael Welch: Why I Love "Job" (It's Painfully Honest)... wrote on Aug 28, 2007 11:52 AM:

" Rick's poking fun (at me as well as you) but what I am always trying to get at is that these books are ancient and predicated on a world view unsustainable today which doesn't mean they haven't fascinating, even profound insights on the human condition. I think Job is the most honest book in the Bible because it portrays suffering as arbitrary, not 'deserved,' perhaps as a vague 'test,' however God is not at all sympathetic and rather defies Job's anguish: You want to take ME to 'court'? Who the hell do YOU think YOU are? Still God permits whining and complaint and He is honest: Job did NOTHING WRONG; I won My bet! He can't however 'raise the dead' but He does replace them as 'life' replaces us... "

Rick Harsch: I find a certain logic: wrote on Aug 28, 2007 11:41 AM:

" none of us sinners, sin being human behavioral matters, Jesus among others tries to make us behave better, our time on earth a fart from a opossum's butt (pre-radar), our bodies buried or burnt, the worms taking over, the worms dying, birth and death...As the Bhagavad Gita says: we don't exist, we exist, then we don't exist: what cause is there in this for sorrow? "

rick harsch wrote on Aug 28, 2007 11:38 AM:

" I may have no theological basis for anything. I find it offensive when a Christian consigns me or Bugs to hell. I find it utterly absurd when it applies to all non-believers because then most of humanity goes, too. I find it funny in a way that a sober theological argument ends with a sort of by the way and friendly 'well, i guess you're going to hell' Why not start with 'You don't believe? Go to hell!' It might save a lot of trouble. On the other hand, since the belief that those who don't smother Jesus in their breast, or whatever we are supposed to to, logically consigns a religion to the fringes of world theological sensibility, Christians should work to find some way of connecting their believs with those of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and all those loose ends like animism. "

To:4:38am wrote on Aug 28, 2007 9:11 AM:

" I do find a certain logic.....All of us sinners.... Jesus dying for our sins....our time on earth merely a blip on the radar screen. But, I do see why it is hard to fathom sometimes. Some see a certain logic, some find the concept illogical. It doesn't matter, though. It is what it is. "

To:Rick Harsch wrote on Aug 28, 2007 9:06 AM:

" One question re your 4:38am post: What theological basis do you have for any kind of a connection between whether you are friendly and whether you go to heaven or hell? If my question doesn't make sense, maybe i am not getting what you are saying and you could explain.... "

Bugs to RD wrote on Aug 28, 2007 8:57 AM:

" Aquinas, of course, was an early influential Christian philosopher. I think he's a saint. At least he was important enough to have a high school named after him. He actually believed the saved could look down on the suffering in hell. On the off chance that he's correct, I posited the possibility that you might wave to me sometime in the future. Perhaps I wouldn't be allowed to wave back as that might be viewed as something pleasurable, which, of course, is inconsistent with the standard depiction of hell. "

Bugs to 3:59 pm wrote on Aug 28, 2007 8:48 AM:

" My assumption here is that your evidence is primarily the Bible. You believe it divinely inspired, but I don't. As you say, Paul was a great sinner. I'd only add that his greatest sin was condoning slavery. You can bet that southern slave-owners in this country used that "slaves, be obedient to your masters" verse to rationalize and perpetuate one of history's great evils. "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 28, 2007 8:17 AM:

" A final comment:I did do a history of the Hallelujah House Fellowship in La Crosse. The manuscript and notes are still in existence.I do appreciate Hemry James when he said we need to write from our experiences.Thank you- "

Richard Dungar wrote on Aug 28, 2007 7:24 AM:

" A sentence in the previous post should read:"We need to speak into your life." In a letter to the editor on May 18, 2007, I wrote about identifying a house on N. 11th Street as being one of the local Jesus People Movement house: the Hallelujah House Fellowship. Henry James was right:"Deep experience is never peaceful". Thank you- "